I did it when... Unfortunate it matters so much to some.

I found a short but interesting comment on Player Versus Developer, that was linking to a conversation happening on EQ2’s Tradeskill Dev and also referenced a thread on Tobold’s blog, about ranked accomplishments.  The conversations include discussion on the raging debate happening in World of Warcraft, about dungeons being simplified for “scrubs” and how that devalues the achievement of those who completed the content at its original level of difficulty.  Honestly folks, I don’t think there is a good solution to this problem.  Players are playing games for very different reasons and even if we simplify it down to the four player types, claiming fame is important to an achiever, while just getting there is important to an explorer or social player.  The crux of the problem is that everyone wants to get there but only one group, for the most part, cares how they got there versus everyone else.

I played WOW from late BETA up until several months before Wrath of the Lich King.  I did the old 40-man raids up to trash clearing in Naxx.  I was bored and out of steam on raiding long before that and was hanging on, praying for something new.  So sure, I can say that I did Onyxia when it was hell on wheels.  When you had to farm for long periods of time to pay for or craft fire resistance gear and have potions, food and pay for your repair bills.  You often exchanged items for FR even if the rest of the stats sucked.  I lived through raids that felt and sounded like this minus the profanity.  I did Onyxia when it took forty-fucking-players to bring her ass to the ground. 

When I read The Ancient Gaming Noob’s post that he and his static group took her down with only 4 players in the high 70s, I laughed and smiled.  Personally, I thought it was AWESOME they attempted it and were successful.    If there’s an achievement for killing Onyxia, that merry band of four now have the same accomplishment as three of my characters, who sweated through it when it took 40 people to succeed and I could care less.  Honestly, the first thing that came to mind was how all the new players, post WOTLK especially, won’t ever know those riotous chaotic moments of the 40-man raids. 

They won’t ever see the FIELD OF CORPSES AND SKELETONS lining the path from the Burning Steppes Flight Masters, to the zone-in points for Molten Core and Blackwing Liar, as guilds slaughtered each other on the PVP servers, on the way to raids.  Raise your hand if you remember how it could take 30+ minutes before you could make it alive from the Flight Master to Blackrock Mountain!  And that was after an hour queue just to log into the damn game.  *hand in the air*

For all that our guild may have gone through to kill Onyxia, it never dawned on me to say, “Hey, no fair!”  They have the same Achievement as I do.  Or if it’s a newer dungeon now simplified, they have access to rewards I worked harder to acquire because I don’t care.  I’m not the classic achiever type.  While I certainly have goals and accomplishments in games, I don’t use them as a way of measuring myself or proving my worth, as compared to other players.  However, there is a player type that does care, and for them, you’ll never make it okay to marginalize what they’ve achieved.  I’m not saying that it is right or wrong, it simply “is”. 

Things change.  What was accomplished 20 years ago often doesn’t carry the same weight as what was achieved today and vice versa.  We can’t even solve these sorts of problems in real life – “Mommy, Billy’s slice of pie is bigger than mine!”  “How come she gets a 12 AM curfew, when I was that age mine was 10:30PM!?!”  “Yeah, I think he loved is first girlfriend more…”  “Our boss won’t let us … how come you clowns can…”

I’m a little surprised that people really expect a solution to something in a game we’ve yet to solve outside of one – ego, elitism, cliques, coveting, envy, jealousy, desire for Shenandoah level equality, etc.  You’re asking game developers to fix a human condition.  Personally, I don’t think it can be done. 

Comments

[Winged Nazgul]

Actually, unless your three characters killed Ony after they put the achievement system in, they won't have that particular achievement. I don't think it backflags achievements. How funny is that?

Yeah, I don't begrudge casual players finally conquering content years after I did either. They're doing it for the same reasons I did...for fun. More power to them.

[Mallika]

Hi Saylah! Sorry to be a bit off-topic but I tried sending you an email to the other address you gave me earlier but it couldn't go through (fatal delivery error, heh), so I sent it to the same email I did in the beginning. Just wanted to let you know you've got something there! :)

[Alysianah aka Saylah]

Thanks Mall! I'll email you from my other account. I must have made a typo.

[Alysianah aka Saylah]

Well that's sort of strange and silly, Winged that previous raid participants don't have the achievement. Oh well, thank goodness I could care less! hehe

[Bhagpuss]

Nicely put, although I actually think it goes farther than that.

As I keep mentioning everywhere I post, I am finally playing WoW five years after everyone else and finding it very different from what I expected. I came to WoW expecting what I'd been told to expect, namely a no-fail, ez-mode MMOlite where it would take little time and less effort to progress. (I don't include raiding in that assessment, because I haven't raided in any MMO in years and therefore have no valid point of comparison. I am purely a levelling, pottering player, non-competetive in the extreme, and I can't be doing with all the organising and standing about waiting that comes with raiding).

Anyway, to get to the point, as a newcomer I am struck by how "old school" WoW actually is. It has tons of the things I really liked about, erm, pre-WoW MMOs. I actually wish I'd played WoW from launch rather than EQ2, because when I read about how WoW used to be it sounds even more immersive and intricate than it is now (which is still plenty), whereas I would sooner clean my oven with a toothbrush than revisit original EQ2.

I've always thought that the reward for "being there first" is being there first. Your memories are the real payoff, not an in-game "achievement". As a newcomer I can have my memories, but I'll never have yours. And I might secretly wish I too could have done it uphill in the snow like you did.

[Winged Nazgul]

Exactly, Bhagpuss. That is why I will always be the "early adopter" type and rely on my own opinions rather than others. I have had these cherished memories now not only for WoW but also for Planetside, CoH, and even WAR for the same reason.

If it makes you feel better, there are a couple of games I wished I had experienced in its heyday namely Asheron's Call and DAOC.

[Alysianah aka Saylah]

@Bhag - Thanks. In many ways WOW is very old school it's just not obtusely difficult. I think some players mistake obtuse difficulty for "grrr hardcore" when it may have in fact been, "oops suck design or bad implementation."

Anyone playing WOW that started with TBC or especially WoTLK is seeing the old content but they're NOT playing the WOW I played, which is what it is. I'm with Winged. I'm glad I saw original WOW and while I certainly appreciate the improvements, many of those battle scars were fun as hell. We wouldn't have kept playing if it hadn't been.

Early WAR too was chaotic mad dash fun. It's the sort of exhileration that really only happens during the first few months of release in a game. I hope the numbers grow and Mythic is able to shape it into all it should be but you know, it won't feel like the original release to people that start playing next year or whenever.

Grass is always greener... Can't please all of the people all of the time...

I don't think there's a reasonable solution to the whole entitlement debate amongst players, when they are all paying customers who want equal access to everything with their particular needs and play styles taken into consideration.

[Tesh]

You can't change those general trends of how people act, but you *can* make it clear that your game is more about the journey than the rewards. That's a game design choice, and WoW has long since chosen to be a gear-centric Achievement-metered race to the DIKU pinnacle.

It's not the only way to design an MMO.

[Kinless]

Old School. MC raids on a PvP server. Oh, the carnage. Woot!