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July 26, 2007

Comments

Dajay

Really clear and interesting.

Otherwise, the today outcome of the "Warlock case" should been focused by Blizzard. Just look at the very top 2vs2 PvP teams engaged in arena : almost most of them have warlock and the only non-warlocked-type-teams implies people with high RO. Sounds bad isn't it ?

I don't know Guild Wars at all, but your whole point concerning balancing by giving specific PvP could be real efficient only if it's correctly implemented. Which could be real pain for developers.

Saylah

Hi Dajay...Thanks for stopping by and commenting. Warlocks are the undisputed caster class for 1v1 and 2v2 encounters. I'm not sure that's such a bad thing. Someone has to be King. :-) However, they really do decline in group PVP as the numbers grow. That's not to say that they can't pwn, but the dominance isn't as assured. Blizzard owes its players fixed classes - all of them. They built the game, mechanics and encounters. It's on them to make it work and feel whole for everyone.

GW has a very successful competitive PVP system with world wide competitions like WOW has now. WOW is the new kid on the block where that's concerned. GW's system works because it is skill based. AND if you're only PVP minded, you don't have to bother rolling a character from 1 to max level. You can get one dressed in minimum gear with minimum skills. Afterward, you're free to go off and perform class quests to unlock your higher end skills. WOW players complain that if someone doesn't level the class they can't play it as well. So what? That means you'll WTF pwn them right? They will learn over time or die alot. Again, no one's loss but their own. However, the benefit is that if you want to try another class or only wanted PVP in the first place, you can go off and do that and not be forced to do PVE. It's worked out well for them.

Their PVE game is a bit lack luster compared to WOW. It's all instanced for the most part and not so MMO. They are going to put GW to rest some time next year and release GW2. Brand new game and people will have to start over since the characters won't be ported. It will be more WOW-like for the PVE but retain their current system of PVP. I will be purchasing and playing GW2. If they're able to bridge that PVE gap, it will be a really great game.

I see you've just started your blog, so I'll link you hear and maybe you'll get some more traffic. Take care and have fun preping your Shaman to raid.

HunterMan72

Another excellent post!! You have no idea how much I enjoy hearing your thoughts about WoW and other MMO's. I have a question, and it may seem stupid but I must ask because I value your opinion. My hunter is lvl 67 now and I am seeing the end approaching for him. Yes, I could attempt to join raids and perhaps after 100 of them I could get one piece of epic gear. On a side note, I have noticed that in BC, a lot of the drops are geared towards clothies and plate wearers, mail armor seems to be lacking as does most useful items for a high level hunter. Am I skewed, or just missing something? But that is not my question. My question is what toon should I level up next? I will of course still play the hunter at lvl 70, but without raiding we all know options are limited. I have a rogue (lvl 11), druid (lvl 20), and shaman (lvl 7). None of them are very high yet, so I have not really invested the time into them. I like my druid but they are so common that it doesn't seem like I am working towards anything special. I like my rogue but he is also a rather common class. As stated in an earlier post, my shaman has been nerfed so much that I am not sure I even want to play him anymore (Enhancement was the road I was going to travel). If I want a healer I could level up my druid as resto, so why bother with the shammy, right? I am not a big fan of the priest class or mages. I have tried every class except priest at some point. I have been considering going back and trying a warlock again, or maybe even a pally. But you have stated in the past that pally's have been nerfed as well. I am afraid that by the time I level up a warlock they will be nerfed too. What to do? Sorry to ramble on about this but you are the WoW expert here, and I am still a relative noob. I just want a class that is fun and that I can do a little PvP with and not repeat all the same quests in PvE. I am already cringing with the thought of questing in Stranglethorn again....*sigh*

Kanthalos

I had a level 60 lock when I played (played my rogue after BC) and PvP was really fun. I was never very good with her, but I definitely understood their potential. Would be a shame if they did a major nerf though.

Brinstar

I think Blizzard could learn a lot about PvP from ArenaNet. GW has held international PvP tournaments for a couple of years now, and they recently implemented an automated tournament system. I don't know the details, since I'm not really into PvP, but it seems like a good concept. PvP in WoW has always struck me as very chaotic and unbalanced, since competition seems to be based on how good your gear is, making it a little more difficult for those new to PvP to learn. Whereas in GW, everyone has the same gear, but skills differ depending on how much you've unlocked in PvE. It made it a little more interesting to start with, but of course favoured builds and team strategies have emerged once people learned the meta-game.

That's not to say that PvP in GW is without problems. The Paragon's Skills got quote a lot of nerfs due to their domination in PvP, leaving us PvE Paragons a little bitter about all the changes. The Profession is still viable in PvE, but it's just not as good. I get the feeling from players that they consider Paragons to be a superfluous Profession, and would rather have different Profession in their party.

Saylah

@Hunterman...10-man raiding on a Hunter might take some work or a very good guild. My own experiences see very few of them invited to Kara, but that could be a fluke. You could PVP on your hunter to upgrade your gear. They are really good in general PVP and can own even Warlocks. I'm not sure how they fair in Arenas though. Lowbie to 70 is a very long way so roll whatever you'll have fun playing. I don't think you can second guess what Blizzard will do next so who knows what will be hot by the time you hit 70. Of course there are core rolls needed for anything group setting - tanks, healer, DPS. If you want something that will secure a raid roll try a pure class and not hybrid. I'm finding Druid fun for the moment. They can tank or heal, just like Paladins. However, they also have to farm for multiple gear sets to suit their various roles. That can be a lot of work.

I have no real advice other than, roll what you think will be fun because it's a loooooooooong road ahead.

Yobbo

Because the trees are so good now, the only way they can tone down Warlocks is to nerf their base damage but I don’t think Blizzard wants to gut the class.

That's not the only way at all.

They could remove fear. They could make dots disappear on Warlock's death. The could nerf any number of abilities into the ground.

Nerfing Warlocks wouldn't make raiding "harder". All it would do is see that a few other classes got a gig instead.

And I disagree that Buffing is better than Nerfing.

If you buff all the classes, PvP becomes even sillier than it is already. PvP should last longer than 3 seconds. Make every class stronger and it lasts a shorter time.

If you nerf ALL classes, then PvP becomes a game that lasts minutes rather than seconds, which is more fun, I believe.

But anyway, to answer your question, there are 3 main reasons why Warlocks are hated.

1. Fear, obviously. Nobody likes to be killed while not being able to do anything.

2. DoTs killing players even after they "win".

3. Warlocks are the only class that doesn't have to respec to dominate in any facet of the game. Affliction locks are great in raids, great in Arena, great grinders, great in BGs, great in World PvP, etc etc etc. They have no weaknesses AT ALL.

No other class can do everything without respeccing. Some classes have to respec to even be able to farm gold. (Prot warriors, any healing class etc).

BM Hunters are the only class that comes close, but they are completely useless in Arena, whereas Warlocks aren't.

Basically, Warlocks are far too powerful compared to every other class in the game.

Gustov

Most, if not all, of the players complaining that another class needs nerfing, are just poor players. I don't complain when I get stun locked and killed in a BG. I try to figure out how to win the next time. The good players have figured out how to use their own classes talents, and are busy enjoying the game instead of complaining on forums. But of course, the squeaky wheels...

Saylah is saying it, and it's true; if it ain't broke, don't fix it. Locks are not broken, they work, and it IS what Blizzard should be striving for in all classes.

Remove fear? That's fair, then remove melee damage. DoTs disappear upon death? Sure, then remove mana costs for DoTs. These are bitter words from an unskilled PvP player, plain and simple. Do you complain when a Paladin bubbles? When a priest fears? When a hunter uses Aimed Shot? When a rogue stuns? When a druid instantly changes forms to dispel? When a mage Blinks? Every class has spells and tricks, you have to learn how to use them. There's only about 100 ways to get out of fear. There's trinkets, wards, and totems available to every player. Learn to play in a group, it's why you lose every time in PvP. I play in a group, and I don't find Locks to be all that difficult to take down, it's Paladins that are still standing at the end of encounters, even if they've lost. But, thats how Paladins work, I'm not complaining =P

Jesse

I couldn't agree more with Gustov.

Every class has it pro's and cons, and every class has ways to succeed in a BG in some aspec. If you only see PVP as playing 1V1, then Lock may seem pretty tough.

Asher

"But anyway, to answer your question, there are 3 main reasons why Warlocks are hated.

1. Fear, obviously. Nobody likes to be killed while not being able to do anything.

2. DoTs killing players even after they "win".

3. Warlocks are the only class that doesn't have to respec to dominate in any facet of the game. Affliction locks are great in raids, great in Arena, great grinders, great in BGs, great in World PvP, etc etc etc. They have no weaknesses AT ALL.

No other class can do everything without respeccing. Some classes have to respec to even be able to farm gold. (Prot warriors, any healing class etc)."

1. Rogues can stunlock you to death. I guess it makes it easier to die while stationary?

2. Fine. Then when the lock dies, the DoT releases it's remaining ticks all at one time. I'm unaware of getting HPs back if I kill an opponent that inflicts burst damage to me. The DoT is on you...it has nothing to do with the Warlock once it leaves his/her hand.

3. Sounds like a problem with other classes. Your solution to the 'problem' is to destroy some of the only talent trees that work. How does that make any sense at all? Perhaps they should unsuck other classes instead of ruining one that is fairly complete?

Leiandra

I disagree with your comment of "Someone has to be King". I'll be honest that I don't PVP much, but it doesn't really seem to be fair that, in certain situations, one class always dominates. All gear being equal, shouldn't each class have the same chance to beat somebody of another class? I even disagree with the rock-paper-scissors theory that I've seen so many times. Even if Blizzard did something like GuildWars, would that make the World of Warcraft classes equal? Wouldn't the warlock still be king over the 1vs1 or 2vs2? Life's not fair, but it seems to me that games should be.

I'm not saying that warlocks should be nerfed. Heck, I think I'd just be happy if somewhere, I saw that Blizzard admitted that there is a problem. You know... the first step is admitting you have a warlock addiction. ;)

Saylah

All great comments. Sorry I've been absent in responding but I'm out of town on business. I think they need to fix all the classes, in which case then it does become more equitable. Nerfing as a mass fix is the easy, lazy and short-sighted solution. ALL CLASSES SHOULD HAVE THREE STRONGLY SYNERGISTIC AND VIABLE TREES! If you make all the other classes strong, the Warlock is no longer the king.

Relmstein

The only nerf going in on the Warlock is resilence reducing the base damage on DOTs. Since this stat is mostly found on PvP gear most people aren't going to have enough of it to make a difference.

It will however make most PvP centric players more able to survive the culminative effect of having 4 DoTs on them. With fear and unstable affliction being tactics which basically prevented DoT removal it was only a matter of time before something was put into the game to counterbalance.

Requiem/Hanes

I found this thing while browsing google for a cool pic for my next D&D campaign, go figure :-)

Anyway, I loved your post mate. It's been a while since I read something on warlocks from somebody who apparently has played a warlock as long as I have! Your analysis is rather spot on in my humble opinion, as usual a clear and specific analysis of the warlock class calls for at least one post stating warlocks need a nerf...

I must say that surprises me, I had hoped that those whiners stayed on the Blizzard forums.
So you want to:
1) remove fear?
No prob, remove stun, rooting, blink, silence, purge, shieldbash, kick, gouge and any other movement or casting impairing effect from the game OR give warlocks another decent escape from anything that does damage.
2) make dots dissapear after death?
No prob, as someone else, and wiser then me, said before: have them deliver all their damage immediately upon the warlock's death. You forget that (Affliction) warlocks have ALWAYS relied on surviving long enough for their dots to deliver the damage. In the earlier days (before TBC) warlocks had more health then 99% of the other players, which ensured the fact that they could actually stay alive that long. This has dissapeared in TBC.
3) AFFLICTION Warlocks have no weaknesses. (yes, you NEED to add affliction as you described an affliction warlock)
Well, I must honestly say you have a point there. Affliction warlocks have very nice dps, very nice mana/damage ratio and rather good survivability both in PVE and PVP. On the other hand, I don't hear many rogues complain, nor do I hear shamans complain or mages. Heck, the ONLY classes that complain are the dedicated healer or tank classes. I don't think there is a problem with the other classes, the thing is either Blizzard needs to incorporate (repeatable) quests dedicated towards those healer/tanks OR 99% of the WOW population needs to realize that they only have their precious epics because there are some weirdo's actually going through the pain of levelling a healer or a tank and playing it, grinding mats, gathering gold...

Last thing... (Whine alert and NOT to be taken seriously)
Resilience affecting Dots:
The reasoning was that dps from all classes was affected by resilience except that of shadowpriests and warlocks.
Well let's reason this through... the original reasoning behind resilience was to avoid 10k crits and instakilling in PVP. When was this ever a problem with dots?
Anyway, I can understand how people find themselves unfairly treated when they no longer see there 10k mortal strikes or 8k fireballs etc, but start to notice that, hey that COA does 3k damage? WTF?

Meh, so now resilience affects dots. Sooo, let's say I got 600 resilience (don't get me on numbers people, go whine on elitistjerks about numbers). 600 resilience means complete immunity to crits AND to dots (ah yes, resilience affects dots now). So what happens now?
This mage can still HIT with his fireball for 3k. The warrior can still MS me for 4k (non crit) but, what the hell? That warlock's UA, COA, CORR, SL does absolutely NOTHING? Woooohooow, another free kill! Perhaps here's the weakness to the Affliction lock mentioned earlier?

I know, it's a whine :-)

anyway, resilience affecting dots? let dots crit. Problem solved imo. :-)

Just noticed this has become a rather long post. Sorry to clog your blog mate.

Saylah

No problem about the length and thanks for taking the time to post. Yeah, I find most of the rants on the forums rather funny, albeit tiresome. I think Warlocks have such high survivability that they could remove fear to shut people up and it wont make that much of a difference. However, that fact that I can get stun locked to death with a poison ticking away my health doesn't seem to raise the same level of outrage among WOW players. Personally, that pisses me off!

My thought was that if Fear is in deed an escape mechanism, then damage should break it - excluding existing DOTs. You shouldn't be able to stand there and drop direct damage nukes on a feared target. That aside, if they other classes were better aka sucked less, Warlocks wouldn't seem so OP. But to gut them in lieu of fixing other classes' issues just seems wrong.

DarkTerror

Excellent post. I have a level 70 Warlock that hit 60 months before BC. HOURS were spent on the BG when I wasn't raiding because, frankly, there was no where else to go. Yeah I could usually kill anyone 1v1 (shaman and undead shadow priests being tougher than most for me) and even sometimes 1v2 and once 1v3 (I wasn't that good - they really sucked). All that said. There were PLENTY of times when I'd try to rez only to be camped by a damned rogue on the graveyard. Sometimes two of them. They simply stun me and crit me to death before I ever half healed - SNICK SNICK SNICK go the daggers. If my pet was dead...forget any chance to call him up. I didn't cry about it. I simply called to my team-mates to help me break free. Go rogues! Play to your strength! Ambush is the they do best and my hat was off to them for being there racking up kills. At the same time I was occupying his/their time and keeping all that damage off of my team-mates. Nothing personal to me or him/them. At the same time Warlocks are ROUTINELY passed over for raids in favor of more "pure" classes like mages. So much so that Blizz incorporated fights designed to almost require warlocks in order to get them into raids. (Like tying a porkchop around the neck of an ugly kid to get the dog to play with him.) It's been a mix of fun and rejection and ganking for 70 levels. Warlocking is complex as hell when its done right. Whatever else anyone can say about it. Playing the game on the Easy Setting is not being a Warlock.

john doe

great post. to these people who hate locks, i agree with everyone here, you just havn't seen the potential of the other classes yet. i seem to remember before bc, 2 lvl 40 rogues could easily kill a 60 warrior by alternating stun locks to the point the warrior couldn't move till he was dead, and you call locks OP'ed? how about pally's, step back and bubble themselves an inch from death and forces you to re-dot and start them from scratch with maybe half your mana? how about shadow priests, they mind flay u (dps+50% loss of speed) till ur to them, then fear you off. now warriors also get that spell deflect thinger, meaning my slow casting nuke that makes me take half my health away while im casting it can shoot it right back at me.

the point of that speach is that EVERY class has a area in which it anoyes you, any class, played well, will have the noobs yelling "OP'ed"

p.s. i believe his 'someone has to be king' saying was more directed 2 the fact that if a holy priest was tops then noobs would be yelling, 'nerf the holy priest', even if it was extremely underpowered for pvp and just skillful played, the forums would be filling with, 'nerf the holy priest' posts

Saylah

@ John Doe...yes, i meant that there has to be a best. I don't think a game can every be 100% balanced. Now, you don't want one class owning the PVP landscape either. But I would hope that Blizzard fixes more of the other classes versus continuing to nuke wasn't not broken.

Kralous

nice post, inspiring. the way i see it, why can't the game just be about the game? who would be the most power hungry class, in my opinion it would be a warlock, hence my choice in rolling one as my main. much the same as the paladin being able to call upon the light near death, and bring themselves back to life. don't forget WoW isn't only PvP and PvE, it is a game, with a story. Blizzard must cater for the roleplayers as well. Balance is important, so keep a lock on your team :P

Shadi

Dear players , Im a rank 14 warlock , and i've read alot of ur comment abouts an overpowerd class situation ,and to be honest , the big issue i noticed that people still wana play like " Quake arena " 1vs1 situation i want to have an equal chance to win over "x" class.

Thats a huge mistake . and i tell u somthing u might dont know , i noticed there is a lot of ill sick people who feel good about them selves when they kill somthing alone.

wow hired psychiatrists for such situationt to ensure such type of players always seek this feeling and taste . hence u see all the OP posts about how the warlock Countered those "sick" type of players .

The game is evolved around Group play B4 TBC , and that means warlock dots can be dispelld , fear can be dispelled , pet can be cced , banished , by any group composition.

the issue there is few who understand what the other class has to offer in a group pvp Enviornment and everybudy wana be Rambo and say i dont need help i can own Bg's alone.

About Arena , in my Honest opinion it was the hugest mistake blizzard made becuase it defined that there is classes who can't be countered in a small pvp Enviormment like 2vs2 bracket due to certain Cc mechanics . where it only functionionted in a 10man BG b4 TBC ONLY.or more.


and that leads us to the important question . the classes are not OP in a certain bracket .

playing arena in a situation there it is paper sizors stone. is bullshit to the max.

because there is no definition how skilled u r playing ur class . its only a roll of a dice decide ur wining or not . where is balanced team play then ? where is the skill?

typical Arena will never be balanced in any bracket possible , and as much they buff/nerf a certain class in some bracket , he will be so overpowerd in a diffrent bracket.

which leads to the conclusion that Arena project is a Failure in all what that word says . cause u can't represent all classess in a balanced enviorment.

the Other funny thing I noticed .. that Blizzard Company tellling u this :

Listen Budy u wana win in arena ?? ur friend must be a discpline priest , or a Resto druid . okayy????

we dont give a flying fuck if ur friend is shammie or somthing else..

since when guys MMO decide who is my friend ? and which class im supposed to play with ?

thats the Balance and i mean no balance Blizzard Achieved....


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